Comments by jean-louiscazaux
Bent Riders. A discussion of pieces, like the Gryphon, that take a step then move as riders.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]Hello all. I'm reading the thread with some days late. I believe I can answer some questions. You have to know that Sonja Musser from the USA, has defended her PhD on the Libro de los Juegos, the Alfonso X's codex, few years ago. On that particular aspect of the Grant Acedrex, I worked with her analysing the Spanish text. Sonja and I speak Spanish. The language used here is a medieval Spanish but it is not a big problem to understand it because that medieval Spanish has more latin roots than the modern one.
You can find the full text on the web and large extracts concerning our Grant Acedrex on my own website here (Spanish text AND Sonja's English translation) : http://history.chess.free.fr/acedrex.htm
The original text and a litteral translation are also given in A World Of Chess, my most recent book.
You will see that we had 2 possible interpretations for the Unicornio, which is clearly a Rhinoceros, nothing else, in the mind of the author of the 13th century. When writing A World Of Chess with my mate Rick Knowlton, we considered it again, and Rick finally convinced me that the most probable interpretation is the more natural N-then-B. I will try to update my website today.
I have studied Murray's a lot and owe a strong respect to his work. What he did is unsurpassed. No one can do something like this today. That being said, Murray's look on chess variants was not very deep. He did not have a lot of estimate for them, being more attracted by chess and its direct ancestors. He made several mistakes, especially on Grant Acedrex, but also on others like Ciccolini's chess. Having access to original sources we have corrected many small details like this in our book A World Of Chess.
To answer the last question from Fergus whether the Unicornio was capturing or not on its initial N's move: Murray affirms that cannot, but the text does not say that. The text says:
"corre mucho desque comienca & faze ante en salto en trauiesso como Cauallo. & assi lo establecieron en este acedrex que anda el primer salto como Cauallo & depues en sosquino como la Cocatriz fata do quisiere; o que tome. E daquella casa o salta non puede tornar a tras si non yr siempre adelante." (in these times they used an u for a v)
Which means (literal translation)
it runs a lot when it begins and begins with a sideward jump like a horse, and so does it in this chess. It goes the first jump like a Horse and then goes in corner like the Crocodile does when it wants to go or take. And from that square where it jumps, it may not turn back, it shall always go forward.
In Grant Acedrex, the Crocodile moves as the MODERN Bishop. (Bishop at that time was an Alfil).
Could the Rhino take when jumping as a Knight? Personally I believe yes, but nobody knows.
We have no more information. People from 21st century shall realise that those of the 13th century didn't have the Internet and a community of chessvariant enthusiasts to comment and discuss any tiny points of the rules :=)
Hope this helps.
Yes Fergus, this is the kind of analysis that we've done. But of course not only 1 passage must be checked, any "theory" has to be tested with other passages of the text. Basically, this is what Sonja has done in her PhD.
To go further on this particular passage, the authors used the verb "to do" instead of "to go". Let's do more litteral:
"corre mucho desque comienca & faze ante en salto en trauiesso como Cauallo."
>> runs a lot when it begins & does before a jump in oblique as a Horse
"& assi lo establecieron en este acedrex que anda el primer salto como Cauallo"
>> & so they established in this chess that walks (anda) the first jump as a Horse
& depues en sosquino como la Cocatriz fata do quisiere; o que tome.
>> & then in corner as the Cocatrice (mythical animal probably inspired by the crocodile. Consider that no crocodile was frequently seen in Castile in those days) does as it wants; or take.
(the punctation ; is given in the numeric Spanish text)
"E daquella casa o salta non puede tornar a tras si non yr siempre adelante."
>> And from that square where it jumps cannot turn back but goes (yr) always forward
Again, there are several points where Murray went wrong with this text. Murray was quite good at many languages, not sure he was with Spanish. Another possibility, I believe it, was the poor consideration that Murray had for those large chess variants. I can elaborate on this if you want.
All my best,
Zanzibar-XL. Further step after Metamachy. 80 pieces of 19 different pieces, with historical lineage.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]I have now loaded new images, consistent with the set-up diagram. Is that OK?
I don't see the new problems.
The pieces that have no image are those of regular chess with the addition of RN and BN. The text clearly says that.
The diagrams have no legends because they are just illustrating. If someone doesn't see the diagrams, it will not be a problem because the text is saying what is in the diagrams. Putting a legend saying "move of the Cannon" for example is not helping much.
Most of the descriptions in chessvariants.com are done in a similar way.
Please publish my page as it is. Thank you.
I have added legends behind each diagram
Thank you.
OK the legend was for the setup. I have legended all other diagrams...
Difficult for me to understand what is not clear. In the text I do list all pieces, then the ones which are on the board, then I explain which other pieces are coming on which squares, then I give as an example a completed set-up. Anyhow, I will try to clarify more.
I will do for the links for piececlopedia, I just have to find out how to do but it shoudn't be complex.
You're right for the Elephant in Janggi, I went too fast, too much focused on the pattern of the move. I'm going to correct.
OK for the Cannon. Yes, this text is made by copying what I have on my own website, this explains why, but I'm gonna change.
Links to CVP pages: yes of course, again because I first wrote this for my website, no problem I'll change.
Thank you, sorry to bother you
Aaargh. I correct the Eagle's diagram immediatly.
For the Lion, I failed my cut/paste, I wanted to point to Chu Shogi's Lion.
Let me correct them.
Thanks a lot
Game Courier. PHP script for playing Chess variants online.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]This is a comment for the page intitled: A Game Courier Preset for Eurasian Chess
At the bottom, in the "Credits" section, there is a link on: This preset uses the newrules settings file for Eurasian Chess.
I wanted to know what are the "new rules" but it points to a 404 error.
Hi, if Alfaerie 1 graphics are chosen for Shako preset, which are much nicer than the old "Cazaux" graphics, one gets a Camel instead of a Cannon.
Is that possible to fix that?
Thanks
Thanks Greg. I'm not skilled enough to do it myself alas. If possible it would be good to align Shako with the letters used for Metamachy as the 2nd is using the pieces of the 1st.
The graphics named "Cazaux" are very old. They come from the early 2000s when I was starting that business with Hans B. Even for my own use I have changed several of these graphics that were ugly (Bishops for example). Alfaerie is much nicer.
Is it possible otherwise to replace the old "Cazaux" graphics set by an updated one?
Zanzibar-XL. Further step after Metamachy. 80 pieces of 19 different pieces, with historical lineage.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]Thank you for your pleasant comment.
As explained, the piece values are just reflecting what Zillions computes. It has no more value than that, the goal was just to give an idea of the relative values. Every method "suck", because the piece value is a complex notion where mobility is just one parameter, we all know that. Maybe I will include a disclaimer to avoid more comments like this.
The path to promotion for Pawns is not longer here than in std chess. Because the Pawns can always move 2 squares forward, like in Metamachy.
With this variant, like with my other ones, my intention was to give fun. Not to be upset by people self-convinced to have found a winning strategy. I was glad to get back to CVP after many years of absence. I was co-editor in the early times with Hans. I see that the spirit has changed a lot.
Game Courier. PHP script for playing Chess variants online.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]I agree that Alfaerie is a very good set. Moreover it is intimately attached to the look of the chessvariant pages. I like it a lot.
Grande Acedrex. A large variant from 13th century Europe. (12x12, Cells: 144) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]Maybe it would be difficult to change it, but the title of this page is wrong:=) !!
Presently it is Grande Acedrex.
This is a mix between two different languages. The title of this game as reported in the original codex is in 13th century Castilian and is Grant Acedrex
In modern Spanish, it will be Grande Ajedrez. Large Chess in English.
But Grande Acedrex is not correct in either language. If it is technically possible, it would be wise to replace "Grande" by "Grant"
I believe that CVP is a serious website, consulted as reference by many, so it ought to be correct.
Game Courier. PHP script for playing Chess variants online.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]Hello, the "Cazaux" graphics do have a Camel of course.
https://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/cazaux/catalog.html
It is not because they didn't have a Camel that a Cannon was shown. No, it is because Shako needs a Cannon, not a Camel. The problem is when using Alfaerie set, it is a Camel that is shown, not a Cannon.
Grande Acedrex. A large variant from 13th century Europe. (12x12, Cells: 144) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]You can see the word "grant" on the 1st line of the document you showed. You can see the transcription on the txt file which is available from my website. From that 1st line we have: Aqui se comienc'a el iuego del g<r>a`nt Ac'e-drex. The (-drex) is on the 2nd line. It appears that the r has been omitted by the scribe. If you want to see a "d" you have one in "del" the word before. It is a round character. You have another "t" at the 2nd word of the 5th line, "todos". I suspect that what you took for a "d" is the "A" from Acedrex. We have a "t" and not a "de".
Indeed Murray used Grande Acedrex. Again I respect his work a lot, but his authority in that area is questionable. SInce 1913 they have been other works, like Sonja Musser on her PhD dissertation of 1441 pages. Gollon simply compiled the variants he loved and he used Murray there. Pritchard was not an historian and relied on Murray as a source. On the contrary there are several scholar references in Sonja Musser's PhD dissertion which are all citing that game as Grant Acedrex as it is indeed written twice in the codex (for 0 as Grande Acedrex). I can give for details for skeptical people. If you don't believe me you can ask Sonja Musser who is active on FB and she can be joined.
Fergus you say: Now that I compare what looked like a d with the two beginning a's in aanca at the top of the second column, I can see that it is an a. The a at the end of aanca is the same shape, but smaller. The word before acedrex looks like it begins with a g and ends with a t.
>> Yes. You repeat what I explained in my answer to your first post where you intended to say that my information, i.e. the name is Grant not Grande, was wrong. So, I repeat, the word "grant" has its "r" missing. Yes, it does start with a g and ends with a t. I'm glad that you recognize your mistake.
You said after: So, we could go with the name grant acedrex but the article should also mention that the game has been referred to as grande acedrex in books by Murray, Gollon, and Pritchard.
>> Of course you could, I would say, you can. I appreciate your trust. The article could also explain that Murray didn't take the exact original title and that the others followed him.
If interested readers come by here, there is a more recent book which has endeavoured to update the knowledge on "ancient and regional" chess variants, as Gollon said, it is the book written by me and Rick Kwolton during 6 years, reviewed by a dozen of experts in their field and deeply blommerized by Peter Blommers that I thank again: A World Of Chess, Mc.Farland, 2017
Have a nice day
Shako. Cannons and elephants are added in variant on 10 by 10 board.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating] Zanzibar-XL. Further step after Metamachy. 80 pieces of 19 different pieces, with historical lineage.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]Not sure I understand the question:
"There still is one thing in the rules that is not clear to me, in connection with the King jump: can the King jump over an enemy piece that is protected? "
>> No for two reasons. 1) when jumping it doesn't matter if the square is occupied or not. So it is like if the square was void. 2) The enemy piece is obviouly on a square. The jump is forbidden when the square is threatened.
"In other words, are pieces considered to attack friendly pieces in their path?"
>> This the question I don't understand. I don't see the relation between your two sentences. Pieces are never attacking friendly pieces or I miss something
HG says: "if a virgin King is on h1, a black Bishop on h2, and a black Knight on g4, the King can move to h3. If his own Bishop was on h2 instead, he could not. "
>>As Fergus said, in both cases, the Bishop on h2 being black or white, the King cannot jump on h3 because h3 is a square under threat.
For several reasons, I wanted to put in Metamachy the original rule of the old medieval King's leap (although they had no real standards in those times) which preceded the modern castling in chess. This is why I kept the rule that he can jump over a threatened square, although it is a bit weird, I agree.
There is the same relic in modern castling. We don't see it because when we mechanically castle, we first move the King two steps, he is not jumping. But the castling's root was a particular case of the King's jump, where the Rook was coming close to the King and the King jumping over. We still have the rule that the square d1 or f1 shall be not attacked.
Zanzibar follows Metamachy, that's right.
I'm sorry, this thread is becoming very confusing ... and I'm adding confusion, really sorry. I made an awful typo.
HG you say: "No, this is not what Fergus said. He said the King could not go to h3 because h2 was attacked. h3 is not attacked. And what Fergus says contradicts what you say: according to Fergus the black Knight is actually considered to attack the black Bishop, a piece of its own color that he cannot capture. While you said: "Pieces are never attacking friendly pieces..."
Sorry sorry. I made a mistake. This is my correct sentence:
>>As Fergus said, in both cases, the Bishop on h2 being black or white, the King cannot jump on h3 because h2 is a square under threat.
Sorry, I meant h2 and I don't know why I wrote h3, which is absurd. As I said, I agree with Fergus.
The black Knight "attacks" h2. When a white piece is on h2, the black Knight obviously attacks that white piece. If it is a black piece which is on h2, then that piece is "protected" by the black Knight. You say "attack (by a friend)", I say "protected", this is just a different understanding of "attacking". "To attack" as something aggressive in my language, which is opposite to "to protect", but for the square which is concerned, it is the same.
No more complicated than that. If I define the rule relatively to the square which is or not under threat, I think it is clear.
I'm not perfect. I speak French every day, not English, please forgive me if I use '"threatened" instead of I don't know what else. If we start to criticize each other for such things, then let's scrutunize every variant that we give in our chess variants pages and not only mines. I believe everyone has understood what the rules of Metamachy or Zanzibar are with respect to that point.
About pinning, common sense is to apply the principle which is in the rules of chess, article 3.1 of FIDE laws:
- A piece is considered to attack a square, even if such a piece is constrained from moving to that square because it would then leave or place the king of its own colour under attack.
Papers on phylogenetic analyses of chess variants 
. Papers describing phylogenetic analyses of chess variants.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]The new link is broken too. Fortunately this paper as well as many others can be found on my webpages, here (in authors' alphabetic order)
http://history.chess.free.fr/library.htm
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The title is Zanzibar-XL:
https://www.chessvariants.com/rules/zanzibar-xl
It appears in my "unreviewed submissions".
Since I posted it, I have re-drawn the graphics with the Chess Board Painting Tool of Musketeer Chess. I didn't know if I could update my page, I was afraid to add more delay if I do it.
I also tried to make :
https://www.chessvariants.com/play/zanzibar-xl
This one too is in my "unreviewed submissions". But I stopped writing this one because I was not sure to understand if I need to do both.
Sorry if I did something wrong, probably I missed a point somewhere. Thank you for your help