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Tron Chess. Every square passed by the queen creates a wall that hinders movement. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
gnohmon wrote on Tue, Apr 9, 2002 02:00 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
When Nemoroth finally appears, you will be amazed by the piece called the
Wounded Fiend, and the distant resemblance to the Tron Queen.

There must be something in the air that makes people come up with similar
ideas at nearly the same time.

Overprotection Chess. If an attacked piece is more often defended than it is attacked, it gains extra powers. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, Apr 9, 2002 03:41 PM UTC:
Busy editorial beavers have made the requested edits to this page, all the while whistling the 'Happy Editor' song. <p> Ok, I read the part about having to be attacked to be overprotected, but somehow it didn't sink in. But there's still a lovely paradox here. <p> Consider: <blockquote> White has Pawns on <b>a3</b>, <b>b4</b> and <b>c3</b>, and a Rook on <b>b1</b>. <p> Black has Pawns on <b>a6</b>, <b>b5</b> and <b>c6</b>, a Rook on <b>b8</b>, and a Bishop on <b>d6</b>. </blockquote> The white Pawn on <b>b4</b> is attacked by one piece, and defended by three, so it can move and capture as a Wazir. Which means it attacks the black Pawn on <b>b5</b>. The black Pawn is then attacked by one, and defended by three, so <em>it</em> can now move and capture like a Wazir. But this reduces the white Pawn on <b>b4</b> from being overprotected by two to being overprotected by one, which means it can no longer capture the black Pawn at <b>b5</b>. But if it can not capture the black Pawn at <b>b5</b>, the black Pawn isn't attacked, and so can't capture the white Pawn which suddenly overprotected by two, which means it <em>can</em> capture the black Pawn. But it can't . . .

The Game of Nemoroth. For the sake of your sanity, do not read this variant! (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
David Howe wrote on Tue, Apr 9, 2002 03:45 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
I've heard vague rumours that this game, or a game very much like it, is
still played at Miskatonic University...

The excellent rating applies to presentation and originality. I have not
playtested this game (yet). Truth be told, I'm not sure I *want* to! :)

Slanted Escalator Chess. Chess on an asymmetric board with interesting connectivity. (8x8, Cells: 60) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, Apr 9, 2002 04:05 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
This is something new in a way, or at least something not often done. It is a game where the two sides, while having the same movement, have different board topologies to deal with in the opening and midgame, and I think it an interesting idea. Now, if there was just some way to determine if it was balanced . . .

The Game of Nemoroth. For the sake of your sanity, do not read this variant! (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Jianying Ji wrote on Tue, Apr 9, 2002 05:41 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Absolutely great, in coherence of theme and originality!

Overprotection Chess. If an attacked piece is more often defended than it is attacked, it gains extra powers. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Tony Paletta wrote on Tue, Apr 9, 2002 06:24 PM UTC:
Apart from the paradox problem, the need to take into account temporary
powers makes assessment of overprotection a bit complicated. 

I would suggest ignoring temporary powers in assessing overprotection.

Chigorin Chess. White has knights instead of bishops and a chancellor for his queen; black has bishops instead of knights. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Tony Paletta wrote on Tue, Apr 9, 2002 06:48 PM UTC:
This variant seems to favor Black materially by at least a pawn.

Chess. The rules of chess. (8x8, Cells: 64) (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
meee wrote on Tue, Apr 9, 2002 11:14 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
I thought this page was good becuase it gave you all the rules.  They wer
eeasy to understand and showed diagrams for furthur clarification

The Game of Nemoroth. For the sake of your sanity, do not read this variant! (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
John Lawson wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 12:08 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Wow!!  

Who said theme doesn't count in abstract games?  I want to play this, but I
think I'm going to be disapointed when the pieces remain silent.  I want to
see a ZRF, but not too soon.  Whoever does it needs to do a good job on the
graphics, not to mention audio, to do the game justice.

'What eldritch noise did I hear?'  Perhaps the screech of the El.

Overprotection Chess. If an attacked piece is more often defended than it is attacked, it gains extra powers. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
gnohmon wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 04:01 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
You have trapped me and won the game of game-making!

You suggested recursive, and I said 'sure, okay', and then you hoisteded me
with me own petard by pointing out a most ingenious paradox, more ingenious
than Doctors Einstein and Schweitzer. I am bereft, like an apprentice to
Pilate.

Where can I find an mp3 of busy editorial beavers whistling the 'Happy
Editor' song as they undo a previous change?

Peter Aronson wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 04:08 AM UTC:
Shall we go with Tony Paletta's suggestion, and avoid all temporary powers when calculating overprotection? It does make it simpler, and importantly improves clarity.

Chigorin Chess. White has knights instead of bishops and a chancellor for his queen; black has bishops instead of knights. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
gnohmon wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 04:18 AM UTC:
'Favors Black, you think? Then perhaps you will be willing to offer me
substantial odds as we play a game for some enormous stake of money, 
perhaps a penny on a1 doubled on each successive square?'

I had almost put the above statement into the story of getting a regular
chessplayer to play Chigorin Chess, somewhere after the part where 'variant
rhymes with deviant and that starts with d and rhymes with t and stands for
trouble.', and way after the part where the regular chessplayer says with a
sneer is that some kind of fairy chess.... (I'm not suggesting that
you're
the offensive non-PC 'regular chessplayer'; the misinformation
about relative values of N and B is part of general unwisdom, that's
all.)

Read any monograph on the Chigorin Defense. You'll find that many 
players now believe the N to be superior in the early stages of the game,
which agrees with my findings on the theory of chess values so I think
it must be right.

Given the advantage of the first move to go with the advantage of fast
development, the *white* side in Chigorin Chess probably has a large
advantage. In order to Castle K-side, Black needs to move two Pawns and two
Bishops; and one of those P moves looks suspiciously like a weakening
move.
White can go 5.O-O at the earliest, but Black can choose to go 3...O-O;
think about it!

And, of course, this is the whole point of Chigorin Chess! You can get a
'regular chessplayer' to play, because he will want to prove that the
Bishops are so much superior...

Overprotection Chess. If an attacked piece is more often defended than it is attacked, it gains extra powers. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
gnohmon wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 04:23 AM UTC:
Yes, I'm afraid that recursion (drat and drat again) must be explicitly forbidden, which is too bad because it sounded like fun.

The Game of Nemoroth. For the sake of your sanity, do not read this variant! (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
gnohmon wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 04:30 AM UTC:
It recently occurred to me that I might have named the Zombie an Iron
Golem so that its dissolution by ichor would be a nethack reference.

But perhaps that would have been inappropriate after all. Lovecraft never
played a game of Nethack in his life.

Slanted Escalator Chess. Chess on an asymmetric board with interesting connectivity. (8x8, Cells: 60) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
gnohmon wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 04:55 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Very interesting.

1. At first sight, the board seems unbalanced because a Black R at b6
attacks
both b2 and c2, but a WR b3 does not get its power doubled.

I would suggest that in the long run this advantage is much greater than
W's advantage of first move.

2. The Bf1 can't go to c4, right? Perhaps Bishops should be replaced by
something else. (Not zFF, that would increase Black's advantage.)

3. A Knightrider on a6 attacks both f2 and e2, right? And a Rose on h6
attacks both d3 and e3, and therefore... interesting.

Overprotection Chess. If an attacked piece is more often defended than it is attacked, it gains extra powers. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Peter Aronson wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 05:01 AM UTC:
Changes made as best I understood. <p> Alas, the Happy Editor song can never be written down or recorded, lest the secret society of web editors silence y

Slanted Escalator Chess. Chess on an asymmetric board with interesting connectivity. (8x8, Cells: 60) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝David Short wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 05:22 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
gnohmon, you're wrong about a few things. first of all,
while black rooks can control double files if they are on the
a,b,g, or h files, a white rook on the b-file would control
both the a-file and b-file, and likewise a white rook on the 
g-file controls both the g-file and h-file. Download the ZRF
and you'll see. 

Bishops may seem weak but they may yet have a purpose in the game.
It may be true that their ability to penetrate the other side of
the board and attack is more difficult, but they'll still be
pretty good as stay-at-home defenders. Note however that white
bishops at a3 or h3 control very long diagonals (bishop at a3 
attacks e8, bishop at h3 attacks d8)

and while black may be able to control the outside files with
his rooks faster, white should be able to occupy the escalator
squares more quickly. In order that white does not get an overwhelming
advantage in the game, I gave black the first move. Time will tell
if the game is balanced sufficiently or not.


Incidentally, if anyone who has ZILLIONS OF GAMES would like to
play either SLANTED ESCALATOR CHESS, or SPINAL TAP CHESS

http://www.chessvariants.com/large.dir/spinal-tap-chess.html

or both, with me by email, drop me a line at DavidNYJfan@hotmail.com
We can email each other the notation and record and save our games
with ZILLIONS. 

What I really like about SLANTED ESCALATOR CHESS is that not only
is there interesting connectivity around the board, but that it's
going to be a bit challenging for each side to try to navigate the
board to get to the other side and get a good attack going. 
Should make things very interesting!

gnohmon wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 05:40 AM UTC:
Um, okay, but Black has 2 doublings on each flank and W only one; and
1...a7-b6 already exploits a doubling to tie W down a tiny bit. 

Have you considered slanted escalators on a 9x9 board?

On the 8x8 board, it seems to me that the clumsiness of Bishops should be
regarded as an opportunity to find some other piece that fits the game
better. Perhaps not as strong as a Rhinorider.

Pieces have to use their own movement powers, so isn't it more of a
staircase than an escalator? And so wouldn't ascending pieces get tired?

It's too late at night, I'm getting silly.

Tron Chess. Every square passed by the queen creates a wall that hinders movement. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Robert Price wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 11:57 AM UTC:
The trouble with my Zillions implementation is, a piece that captures a
Wall disappears until you make the board redraw itself.  When the computer
plays against itself, it's not a problem.  But when a human captures a
Wall, he needs to hit Ctrl-F twice or something.  It would be an easy, easy
thing for Zillions Development to fix.

I guess it's my own fault for trying to make two boards, one on top of the
other.  I just thought it would be more elegant that way.

💡📝Adam Norberg wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 12:08 PM UTC:
Don't use two boards... I suggest you download Rubble Chess (another one of
my inventions, Z'd by Peter Aronson) and take it apart to find out how it
worked. All you need to do is make variants of it where the <foo> leaves
behind Rubble Pieces, for <foo> being any chess piece. (I don't think pawns
would work very well, but...) You can also make special starts where the
board starts full of walls (rubble chess start), etc...

--Adam

Anonymous wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 01:10 PM UTC:
Leaving rubble pieces behind as the TronQueen slides is the problematic
part, because (and I've run into this problem again and again) there's no
(direct) way to generate a move that creates more than one piece.

The solution that leaps to mind is to have so-called 'empty' squares be
dummy pieces with no images, and turn multiple ones into Walls at the
appropriate time (which is also problematic, but doable).  That's probably
what I'll have to do, but it means reimplementing all the Chess moves so
that chess pieces are trading places with dummy pieces instead of moving to
empty squares.  Capturing means trading places with the captured piece and
turning it into a dummy.  There are lots of things that could go wrong and
strange bugs that would surface.

The two-board approach meant that the dummies could cover the underboard
while the chess pieces moved about on the overboard.  When you play the
game, you only see one board.  The second board occupies the same pixels. 
It's just an implementation device.

Chigorin Chess. White has knights instead of bishops and a chancellor for his queen; black has bishops instead of knights. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Tony Paletta wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 02:21 PM UTC:
My comment that Black was ahead was based on R+B vs R+N multiplied by pawn promotion. The B vs N is probably just a wash -- maybe giving White some early play but moving towards Black in mid-end play.

Slanted Escalator Chess. Chess on an asymmetric board with interesting connectivity. (8x8, Cells: 60) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Tony Paletta wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 02:40 PM UTC:
Agree with gnohmon that there is an imbalance. Suggest reversing e-side escalator and transposing one side's royals (e.g., Kd1 and Qe1).

Rook-Level Chess[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Peter Aronson wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 05:25 PM UTC:
The discussion of piece values and the purpose of the variant for <a href='../diffsetup.dir/chigorin.html'>Chigorin Chess</a> reminded me of a conceptually-related idea I had a while ago I called Rook-Level Chess. <p> <h4>Rook-Level Chess</h4> <p> The idea I wanted to explore in Rook-Level Chess is: how would the play of Chess be affected if the Rook, the Knight and the Bishop all had approximately the same value? It seemed to me that threats would be harder at the very least. Anyway, drawing on Ralph Betza's work on the value of Chess pieces I selected stronger Knights and Bishops that retained some of the character of the existing pieces: for Knights I used NW (Knight + Wazir or Marquis), for Bishops I used BD (Bishop + Dabbabah or Bede). These pieces retain the color behavior of the pieces they replace: the Marquis is color-changing, and the Bede is colorbound. <p> I sent this to David Paulowich, and asked him how he thought this would affect exchanges. He replied that we would still prefer a Rook to a Marquis and a Marquis to a Bede, as you could mate with a Rook + King vs King, but not with Marquis + King vs King or Bede + King vs King, and he still though color-switching pieces more valuable than colorbound ones, other things being equal. <h4>Rook-Level Chess II</h4> <p> Given the above comment, I wondered if the powered up Knight and Bishop could retain <i>different</i> characteristics of the base piece? So, for Rook-Level Chess II I replaced the Knight with ND (Knight + Dabbabah or Vicount) and the Bishop with BW (Bishop + Ferz or Dragon-Horse). In this case I retained that the Knight was a strictly leaping piece not attacking adjacent pieces, and I retained that the Bishop was a non-jumping piece. Are these pieces of equal value? And could you mate with Vicount + King vs King? (Dragon-Horse + King vs King is a win.) <h4>Discussion</h4> <p> I've played around with Rook-Level Chess a bit with Zillions for what it is worth, but I strongly suspect it loses somethings that Chess has. If nothing else, weak pieces can be fun since they can harass stronger pieces. <p> Other versions are of course possible. Given that Ralph has settled down to rating the Crooked Bishop (zFF) as equal to a Rook (there being a brief point where he was rating it at 1.5 Rooks), a Crooked Bishop might replace the Bishop nicely. <p> I should eventually add these as modest variants.

General Comments Page. Page for making general comments.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Peter Aronson wrote on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 05:29 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
It would be nice if a place to click to create a new subject at the top of the comments page. Right now, as far as I can tell, you have to page down until you find an existing thread, and click there.

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