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Hans Aberg wrote on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 02:36 PM EDT:

H.G.Muller:
| Well, let us take one particular position then: the opening position of
| FIDE Chess. You maintain that the outcome of any game starting from this
| position is fixed?

Since there is only a finite number of positions, there is theoretically an optimal strategy.

| A quick peek in the FIDE database of Grand Master games
| should be sufficient to convince you that you are very, very wrong about
| this. Games starting from this position are lost, won and drawn in
| enormous numbers. There is no pre-determined outcome at all.

They probably haven't searched through all positions to find the optimal strategy.

| Computers that use the statistical approach, such as Rybka, are
| incomparably strong. Humans, using the way you describe, simply cannot
| compete. These are the facts of life.

I suspect that humans are not allowed to search through zillions of positions like computers do. Specifically, if strong human players are allowed to experiment to search out of the weaknesses of the computer programs and using other computer programs to check against computational mistakes, I think that these computer programs will not be as strong.

But as for the question of piece values, humans and computers may prefer different values - it depends on how they should be used.

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Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 12:43 PM EDT:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:26 AM EDT:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:22 AM EDT:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 07:50 AM EDT:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 06:34 AM EDT:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

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