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Hans Aberg wrote on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 05:14 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| I suspect you misunderstand what quantity is analyzed. In any case not how players handle | the position. But the very question you do ask, 'what are my chances for a draw with 1, 2 | or 3 Pawns in compensation', can only be answered in a statistical sense. The answer will | never be 'with 1 Pawn I will lose, with 2 Pawns I will draw, and with 3 Pawns, I will
| win'. It will be something like: 'With one Pawn I will have 5% chance on a win and 10% on | a draw, (and thus 85% for a loss) with 2 Pawns this will be 20-30-50, and with 3 Pawns 50-| 30-20. And I can count a Passer as 1.5, so if my 2 Pawns include a passer it will be 35-
| 30-35).'

No, this is the flaw of your method (but try to refine it):

Chess is not played against probabilities, as in say poker. There is really thought to be a determined outcome in practical playing, just as the theory says. I can have a look at my opponent and ask 'what are the chances my opponent will not see my faked position' - but that would lead to poor playing. Much better is trying to play in positions that your opponent for some reason is not so good at, but it does not mean that one takes a statistical approach to playing.

Playing strength is dependent roughly on how deep on can look - the one that looks the furthest. There are two methods of looking deeper - compute more positions. Or to find a method by which positions need not be computed, because they are unlikely to win. 'Unlikely' here does not refer to a probability of position, but past experience, including analysis. With a good theory in hand, one can try to play into positions where it applies -- this is called a plan.

If I have an when the position values applies, I can try to play into such situation, and try to avoid the others.

When I looked at your statistical values, I realized I could not use them for playing, because they do not tell me what I want to know. A computer that does not care about such position evaluations may be able to use them. But I think the program will not be very strong against an experienced human.

But in the end, it is the method that produce the wins that is the best.

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Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

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