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Comments by joejoyce
Thanks for the comments, Charles. I like the name 'Alibaba', and will gladly use it for the DA piece (even if I never find the 40 thieves), though I also like the 'Jumping General', which would then be the augmented alibaba. I'd prefer to keep to 'old-style' names for the pieces, so I'd be uncomfortable using names like 'Marshlander' for example. You have reminded me of the discussion on names a while back; if I remember correctly, your carpenter got hammered then... sorry, but you shouldn't feed me those lines. You're exposing me as a person who is not serious, but I am a serious designer. And I do want to keep all the names in the same thematic group, so I'll gratefully take alibaba, but probably use the adjective 'augmented' with the name of a piece to indicate it has a new and lesser (not as 'important' or extensive) move; eg: the augmented alibaba is the jumping general. Augmented knights would be the NF and NW pieces (though this might cause a little confusion). Names for compounds of roughly equivalent pieces, like the NA or ND, still elude me.
John, thank you for the reference. I've been using multiple sets with colored twist-ties, or sets of slightly-varying sizes (and often slightly-varying colors) with the 'big' rooks and bishops representing chancellors and cardinals, and such. Now, if I had only taken shop...
Thank you for your comments and references, David. This elephant does not show up in the CV piecelopedia, but does in piece descriptions within the rules of both games you mention. How many others, who knows, but it seems to be a logical 'new' piece. This does demonstrate how difficult it is to come up with something truly new in the way of pieces. Hasn't stopped anyone from trying yet, including me. A comprehensive set of rules for shatranj variants is, based on just these variants posted in 2005, very possibly doomed. Boards, pieces, setups and even setup strategy all have expanded considerably. A shatranj piecelopedia and a book on shatranj variants might be the best we could hope for.
Hello, David. I would be happy to swap games with you. I'd love to try an 8x10 shatranj game. It will probably take me a few days to get a skeleton GC preset together, non-rules-enforcing so we have the choice of specific pieces*. Never played Makruk, or any of your variants, so whatever you want is fine with me. Ten moves a week is at the upper limit of my practical ability, but five per is a good number. Looking forward to it. Sufficient mating force: the pieces I'm inclined to use in our game of 'great shatranj' (an awkward name for an 8x10 size) are the 1-step slide, 2-step jump pieces, like the Modern (Shatranj) Elephant. The dabbabah-wazir ('dababba') steps one or jumps two orthogonally. Clearly, the 2-step dababba-rider Gary Gifford and I are using in the Grand Shatranj test game can, with the king, checkmate a bare king, having a move of 1, 2, 3, or 4 squares. But the Modern Dababba moves only 1 or 2 squares. Can king and dababba checkmate lone king? *great rationalization for my being unable to do anything more than gut a pre-existing preset.
Hello David. As I do not have your email address, I'm offering you the invite this way. I have a non-rules-checking Great Shatranj test preset at: http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game%3DGreat+Shatranj+Test%26settings%3Ddefault What are your preferences for pieces and set-up? The current setup guards all the pawns, which people seem to think is important. I would prefer we don't use the historic fers, wazir, alfil, or dabbabah, or the not-yet official zigzag general, but it's up to you. My e-add for a little longer is joejoyce at sprynet dot com. I will be dropping it in a couple weeks as I've switched providers. Pity, it never got spammed, not even once.
carlos carlos, where are you? You own me a move in the tournament, and you're running out of time. Our game of Switching Chess is in week 2, and you haven't made a move yet. I'd like a win, but shouldn't get it by default. If anyone has Carlos' address, please email him or send me the address - thanks. Joe Joyce
This looks like a very interesting game. It should be much faster playing than shatranj, given the coupling of a great increase in the number of long-range pieces with the forward setup. Could get some fierce shoot-outs with this setup. Some basic numbers: Shatranj FIDE Mir # non-royal pieces 7 7 9 # short-range 5 2 4 # long-range 2 5 5 So, while shatranj and Fide are opposites, Mir matches FIDE for long-range pieces and all 4 short-range Mir pieces are jumpers. But, while the rooks cancel out, the cannons and superbishop don't quite seem the equal of bishops and queen. They're certainly not quite as easy to use. Still, all other things being equal, I wouldn't want FIDE in a FIDE-Mir 'Chess with Unequal Armies' game. I would love a copy of the zrf when it's done.
This game is a beautiful concept, from the spare beauty of the initial setup to the balancing of the weak piece set with a fairly free piece placement and drops. It is not a game for the faint-hearted. It is probably extremely sensitive to beginning play; certainly you can win or lose quickly in this game. Several layers of play with all their complex choices are built from a few simple ideas in an easy-to-understand game. You've made a maddeningly complex easy-to-understand game. Nice job, Gary.
Um, let me try this again. This is a really great game. But when you're trying to say that and the designer has to defend himself from your excellent rating, you've probably done something wrong. My sincere apologies. My only excuse is that it was late and I'd taken several cold pills an hour before. Apparently for me, typing while sleeping is as dangerous as driving while sleeping. I was far too forceful in expressing some of my points. 'Maddening complexity' is one instance. I never actually beat my head against the keyboard (although if you look at the game, you'll see several spots where I wanted to) or even came close, except over some of my own errors. Hard as it may be to believe, I was trying to compliment the game, and encourage people to play it. I think it would make an excellent tournament game next time around. So, let me try this again. I do believe it is opening-sensitive, and here's why: 99% of variants have all their piece starting positions pre-determined, and the sides almost always mirror one another. Almost never does a piece on its starting square attack an opposing piece. SoT requires you to set up your own pieces as moves in the game. Now you have to work to balance the other guy's setup, and may wind up with a considerably different setup. This is an 'extra area', where players can gain or lose during setup. This can't happen in FIDE. But this is a bonus, making the game quite unique, to the best of my knowledge. It appears that playing through a number of openings would help you determine better piece placements. If one player makes significantly better piece placements, that advantage may easily carry through the game. I see this as a whole new area, you see it as 'much more opening variety'. I obsess over placements, counting squares a jamal or dabbabah can reach, trying to ensure that pieces can support each other; it's not necessarily simple for everyone. I always had trouble with free set-ups in wargames. It generally took me a few repeats of a game to have an idea of how to do the initial piece placement. And, of course, an opponent, knowing your preferences, can adjust his placement to disrupt yours. This helps make the game excellent, regardless of how it's seen. Finally, the 'Nice job'. That should have been 'Tremendous job'. I'm looking forward to playing this again. I want (need) to learn how to use the Trojan horse. It's an outstanding piece. As far as resigning too quickly, you had me good - you just got the 2nd rook, and controlled my back rank. I was hoping to start again, and play a much more even game, now that I have some idea of how placement and drops work. This game deserves a better test than I gave it so far.
I've been a member of this site (and online) a little over a year. I have never seen the Encyclopedia of Chess Variants nor had any dealings with Mr. Pritchard. However, in the brief time I've been here, I've seen his name cited over and over again, as authoritative. I believe David Howe is right. Whether or not this site ever generally recognizes people in addition to games, I think Mr. Pritchard more than deserves the recognition and thanks of people who love what chess can be. Surely it is the rare person like David Pritchard who has helped create the conditions and situations that all the rest of us enjoy. I feel this site would be remiss in not finding a way to memorialize him. My sincere condolences to his family and friends. M J Joyce III
What happens when a game you've won, and it says 'You have won' in the game log, doesn't show up in the calculations, even though you can call it up by name from the game logs with your password, and it shows as a win when you list all your games? The game in question is Omega Chess oncljan-joejoyce-2005-96-245 Admittedly, it's not a good win, but it balances out one of the almost-won games where my opponent disappeared just before the end. (I see the value of timed games now.) Actually, I hadn't brought it up before because it is such a poor win that I didn't feel I deserve it, but I realized that if it was included, I just might get up to 1500 briefly, before I lose to Carlos, David, Gary..., and that'd be a kick for someone who's only been playing a year or so after, depending on how you wish to count time off, 30-40 years. I will say the ratings have brought out everyone's competitive spirits. As for me, I'll happily carry a general rating that takes in all my games: playtests, coffee-house, and tournament; but, since people are asking for so many things, I'd like to add one more. Would it be possible or practical to allow people to choose one or more subsets of games for a specific rating. For example, I am currently playing several variants of shatranj now, one of which is 'grand shatranj'. Could I be allowed to put any number of game names into a 'Rate these games only' field, so I could get a combined rating for say 6 shatranj variants plus Grand Chess? And then another for the 'big board' games, and so on?
Hello Fergus or whomever. I have just gotten exactly the same error as Christine, when I clicked on the 'Last Game Courier move made ...' button on the 'What's New' page, down to the exact wording.
Yes, it does, and on poor Roberto's page, too. So I traveled this comment to a new spot.
Hi, Matt. It's unlikely your submission was rejected. Ms. Bagley-Jones was being optomistic when she said 'one week'. My first submission took a fair bit longer to get posted, as did my second. There is a severe shortage of editor time on this site, unfortunately, so things go slow these days. Don't worry, most of us find it's worth the wait. I designed my second variant while waiting impatiently for the first one to get posted, as a way to relieve the tension. In the meantime, welcome to Wonderland (and check out Alice - one of the many fine variants here). Enjoy. Joe
Thanks for the comment. It's nice to know people read this stuff. You make an interesting case for the evolution of the bishop. I don't necessarily agree, but I also don't disagree. I looked at your examples, and you have several good points. I freely admit (and have previously admitted - I also wrote a comment 'shatranj2chess' that I took most of for the MS discussion) that I offered speculation only on the origins of the modern FIDE game. What I did was to take the smallest possible changes from shatranj that moved it directly toward modern chess, and saw 6 of them in piece movement. I consider each one a least change from the previous state. I have little to no idea of the actual history of chess. I was merely trying to put together an easiest possible path in discrete steps from one to the other. As a path of least action, it could not include larger boards and more pieces. Your version is easily as likely to be 'right' as is mine, though I strongly suspect neither is. I also 'strongly suspect' (aka: 'know') there are people here who could give us accurate info. Again, thanks.
I feel I have to weigh in on the subject of re-using grand, well-established names for new variants, as I am soon to post presets for my 'Two Large Shatranj Variants', respectively Great and Grand Shatranj. I agree in general with the opinions expressed by Fergus Duniho and Gary Gifford on Grand Chess 2, but there are circumstances where this general prohibition of re-using a name should not hold. Specifically, I wrote to Christian Freeling to ask his permission to call one variant 'Grand Shatranj', and before I posted 2Large I sent him a copy to vet. Had he in any way objected to me about the name or the game, I would have changed it; and should he have any objections now or in the future, I will change it. Should it be felt necessary, I can produce the emails. In my posting of 2Large, I make clear exactly what my debt to Mr. Freeling and Grand Chess is. Under these circumstances, I feel my use of the name and setup for Grand Shatranj is acceptable, even if I am over-reaching. Now, back to having fun.
Christine, you're right! Do you think I should write to her?
Fergus, my objections were, to a great extent, pro forma. But the fact is that my variant is deliberately named 'Grand' to refer to Mr. Freeling's game, and I made that clear in my write-up. I deliberately copied the setup to solve the problems I felt existed with my 10x8 variant because I think the Grand Chess board and setup is an elegant solution to those problems. What I didn't want was people to see presets for Grand Shatranj and think: 'Oh, great, here's some idiot that didn't get the message, even though it's in black and white' (even though on my machine it's in black lettering on a grey background). Wow, there are several messages here, while I'm typing this - sorry, Fergus, saw your comment between my answer to christine and edited it to name her rather than have it look like a reply to your comment (this is getting convoluted). Okay, back to the original topic. Whatever that was. I truly don't see a problem with naming something after something else under these conditions: 1) with appropriate permission; 2) if even the direct descendants of the inventor are unaware they are the heirs. In this case, they can't come after you. :-) Okay, if the origins of the name are lost in antiquity might be a better rule. Gary, if it was good enough, and it followed #1 & 2 above well, heck, do it - you playtested Grand Shatranj I enough! And thanks for that. And, finally, Christine, no, I'm just a plodder with no creativity...
Gary, I'd be complimented if you put out a 'Grand Shatranj II', but Christine has already claimed the name. Christine, you have to send me the ZRF first, otherwise I let Gary have the name. David, I'm perfectly willing to have the naming controversy here, under the title of 'Grand Shatranj', because the controversy has some legitimacy (and I don't mind a little advertising of my games either ;) Since I firmly believe Grand Shatranj (and Great Shatranj, which you playtested) are good games, and neither is out separately yet for this controversy to spill all over their pages, then it is a better forum than the game of some poor caught-in-the-crossfire poster who was probably trying to praise the original game. Besides, I'm hoping that you put out a Great Shatranj game with your own unique stamp on it. ;-) Seriously, it may be good to have an editorial policy about names. I think it should be simple. 'No Poaching!' would be a good first approximation, but I believe it needs to go further than that. My 2 rules suggestion: appropriate permission or lost in antiquity I believe are at least a good start. The lost in antiquity rule allows us to call our games 'chess' as Fergus has indirectly pointed out. (Christine, you got 1st crack at GC2, so Fergus gets credit for that - okay, you get credit first, but I'm not going to admit it.) But I honestly don't see a problem with Gary doing a variant of my game and using the name GC2 or 3 or whatever, as long as he got my permission in advance. And I would want to see the game to be sure it measured up (or down, as the case may be) to my standards as set in the 'original'. If those conditions obtained, and were demonstrated to the editor, then the name should stand. And now I've got too much of a headache to actually make my chess moves. This being serious stuff is not fun. Well, fortunately, I'm rarely really serious, seriously! Now, back to having fun.
Once again, I'll put my foot in my mouth up to my shoulder. David, I think I see what you're doing. Here I am. This name is a little tacky. But, reading the rules, I see Mr. Scanlon is paying homage to Grand Chess in his own way. Gary and I have agreed, in an exchange of private emails, that people might take me too seriously. I mention this partly for completeness, but mostly because I wish to copy 1 sentence from my email to Gary for Christine - 'As far as Christine, without talking to her, I'd bet she has no such animal as a GS game to come out, it's most likely her sense of humor coming out.' Hah! Got you on the first try! :) Roberto, you have the best line about the rules of this game. Thank you. Terms like maximum logical consistancy always worry me. I'm glad others are bothered, too. To finish seriously, there may be no legal problem with names like More Granderer Chess II, I'm not up on copyright law. But as a community, this group can exert social pressure, fairly or unfairly. What are the community standards, and what is fair?
Okay, Gary, I was trying to be nice and let him down easy. A. O. Myers does a discussion of Grander Chess (first item under See Also) in which he disagrees with K. Scanlon's elimination of en passant and treatment of stalemate, but agrees with the new piece placement. Now, I also think en passant should stay. And if there is a problem with stalemate, then give the stalemater 2/3 of a point and the stalematee 1/3. That satisfies my sense of what feels right. I'd even take a little issue with piece placement, as the knights are, in both variants, pushed farther away from the middle, thus weakening them somewhat, but I don't see an alternative that's better or even as good as the current knight placement. (Obviously I use the same setup in GS.) Finally, I don't believe the name is justified. Fergus makes excellent points and sense in his comments. Mr. Scanlon tried, but the group consensus is that he obviously did not succeed. What he did, at most, was create a modest variant of Grand Chess with a most immodest name. Of course, that puts many of us, perhaps me especially, at risk for our games' names.
Sam, I believe you have crossed the Rubicon into wargame design with your game proposal in CoT. You have all pieces moving each turn (in what order?) and ranged combat with odds for success, a hex board and terrain; all you need is to call it a wargame, and maybe add a combat results table for all 'combats' between 2 opposing pieces, not just the ranged ones. I would recommend to anyone HG Wells 'Little Wars' for a fascinating look at wargaming from some of the history and how to of wargaming to pictures of an influential author on hands and knees in miniature battle scenes. It's not quite chess. I see a line between chess variants and wargames that is crossed several times in Crossing the Rubicon.
Nice idea very nicely done. Fine piece choices. Have to rate it excellent.
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